Universal income?

sstiel said:
Taxing assets instead of income is an interesting proposal...
Click to expand...

For reasons well outside this discussion, tax should be taken away from income, I think. No income tax, and no VAT. Tax should be levied at the point where we wish to restrict consumption, which aims squarely at oil companies, mining operations (and similar ways of wresting resources from the Earth), and the like. The need is to reduce consumption, and all of our energies (šŸ˜‹) should probably be devoted to that cause. Our labour is one of the few 'sustainable' things we have at our disposal, and should be made cheaper in relative terms. This would encourage more craft work, and less automation, for a start.

But I am taking the discussion to far away from UBI, so I'll stop now. The problem is that all serious political questions overlap and interact. UBI cannot be considered in isolation.
 
It is all linked together, UBI is a good idea but needs funding. VAT is a tax o consumption. only taxing things we should not do is err if successful going to leave you with no money to run the country.
 
Thunderchild said:
It is all linked together, UBI is a good idea but needs funding. VAT is a tax o consumption. only taxing things we should not do is err if successful going to leave you with no money to run the country.
Click to expand...

I think we need to use taxation progressively. So, because our problem is hugely excessive consumption, we might choose to tax anything and everything that contributes directly to our consumption. The damaging consumption, that is, which is most of it. It is true that if we reached a point where our consumption reached an acceptable and sustainable level, we might start to run short of tax income. But this is as likely as pigs flying; we can deal with it if it ever happens. Tax policy would also be broad in scope, so something like an air-conditioning unit would be heavily taxed for a number of different reasons.

This way, taxation provides the government with an income, and also seeks to moderate our most problematic traits.
 
You can quickly run into problems. So let's say we tax petrol more heavily because you should be using an electric vehicle. We all agree I am sure that petrol as a transport energy source is a really bad idea. So Mr. Ā£40k a year goes off and buy's and electric car because his petrol car just got so expensive that it's worth getting electric. There have been incentives along these lines already. But Mr. Ā£20k (or less - what is the minimum wage annually now?) can't afford an electric car so is left paying the tax that funds the services used by Mr. Ā£40k/y. I am hoping my next car will be electric but it depends on several things. Now that I have a new neighbor who is a nice guy and has opened up access to me putting my car outside my house as I have no drive being on an inside corner but now that we have gone "open plan" I can actually put my car on my land to charge rather than on the other side of the road. My current petrol car will have to last me long enough and prices of electrics come down by the time I get rid of this car.

Air conditioning? hm, I thought about getting it as much as I am an environmentalist because I can use it to heat too, and for every 1kW of heat you move it requires 0.3kW of power so as a heater it's 1/3 the energy to run but alas it would get used to cool too in extreme heat. But then what about people who need it because they just cannot survive the heat, do they need to be penalized for the global warming they did not create?

You could price dirty electricity out of the market but at the same time "someone" has to invest on a now lower return in renewables. I put 8kW of panels on my roof, I will never see my money back. I am actually paid the wholesale rate which is set every 30 minutes, but I benefit little from the high wholesale prices as they occur when I can't produce and coal is online. On the other hand I am on a wholesale rate linked purchasing tariff so when rates go up I get clobbered and have changed my habits to a degree to work with the cheaper power but this is not a tax system just the electricity wholesale market that most users do not see. I took out a mortgage to pay for my panels and did it because I thought it was the right thing to do, but most people can't even afford to do that.

You can't really tax the bad until you make viable replacements available as often all you will do is tax the poor.
 
Thunderchild said:
[...]

You can't really tax the bad until you make viable replacements available as often all you will do is tax the poor.
Click to expand...

The point is not to give up a bad thing, and put a less-bad thing in its place. It is to give up our anti-environmental practices, and not to put anything at all in their place unless the replacement is pro-environmental. Even 'neutral' isn't enough. My hope is that progressive taxation can help in the saving of our species and our world. But anything that contributes positively is welcome.
 
https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates Here are current rates for minimum wage and the living wage.

Wider discussion here:
www.opendemocracy.net

Basic income could virtually eliminate poverty in the United Kingdom at a cost of Ā£67 billion per year

Intuition is wrong when it comes to calculating the true cost of basic income ā€“ the UK can easily afford it.
www.opendemocracy.net www.opendemocracy.net
www.nationalgeographic.co.uk

National Geographic

Explore National Geographic. A world leader in geography, cartography and exploration.
www.nationalgeographic.co.uk www.nationalgeographic.co.uk

I wonder if the National Autistic Society would take an interest in it. It certainly would eradicate worry about going into Job Centres and fear of being punished.
 
sstiel said:
The Liberal Democrat conference announced a basic income as one of its policies: https://www.libdems.org.uk/f8-ubi Aside from whether they would get into government again, does anyone think it would be a good policy for autistic people as we struggle to find paid employment?
Click to expand...
It would remove a lot of stress. Thereā€™s periods where Iā€™m incapable of getting out of bed and thereā€™s periods where Iā€™m able to be nearly abled, but such large fluctuations between my abilities, and the fact that my periods of being bed bound can last weeks or months are not compatible with most jobs. In general, I think it would be easier and cheaper to give UBI to everyone, at a level where everyone can live instead of just surviving.
 
ProfessorWorm said:
It would remove a lot of stress. Thereā€™s periods where Iā€™m incapable of getting out of bed and thereā€™s periods where Iā€™m able to be nearly abled, but such large fluctuations between my abilities, and the fact that my periods of being bed bound can last weeks or months are not compatible with most jobs. In general, I think it would be easier and cheaper to give UBI to everyone, at a level where everyone can live instead of just surviving.
Click to expand...
What would be a good level for Britain? That's the issue and would it be paid out for the year? In some of the examples I've mentioned like Alaska, it's paid out during a specific month.
 
sstiel said:
What would be a good level for Britain? That's the issue and would it be paid out for the year? In some of the examples I've mentioned like Alaska, it's paid out during a specific month.
Click to expand...
Iā€™m not an economist, so Iā€™ll leave those calculations to someone more qualified, but a level that could cover an average rent for an apartment suitable to the familyā€™s size, a grocery budget large enough to allow for routine access to healthy food, and something for wants/savings and random other needs like clothes and hygiene products. I think doing it in two week increments would be best, and to make sure everyone can access it regardless of asset level would be good. Ideally, it would make it so work is something you choose to do rather than a necessity of life.
 
ProfessorWorm said:
Iā€™m not an economist, so Iā€™ll leave those calculations to someone more qualified, but a level that could cover an average rent for an apartment suitable to the familyā€™s size, a grocery budget large enough to allow for routine access to healthy food, and something for wants/savings and random other needs like clothes and hygiene products. I think doing it in two week increments would be best, and to make sure everyone can access it regardless of asset level would be good. Ideally, it would make it so work is something you choose to do rather than a necessity of life.
Click to expand...
Older members of this forum may remember this. This is an episode from 1984 by World In Action where the Conservative MP for West Derbyshire Matthew Parris was challenged to live on supplementary benefit for a week in Newcastle.
A UBI could really be good if your industry is suffering decline. You could use it to live on. Benefits are not generous and Atos etc put disabled people through fit to work tests.
 
Maybe a slightly better version, aspect ratio is right anyway.


Well all credit to Mathew Paris for actually being willing to take part. The politicians of today would certainly not "lower" themselves. It's sad though that even after experiencing it he still cannot see that it's no fun.

When I returned from living abroad I had all of this to look forward to. Living in my own home meant that I paid my own council tax or actually I could have probably got some help but our fragmented system meant I did not know as no one told me. I survived from getting the odd temp job as job seekers alone was never enough. I bought a car with savings I brought back with me which gave me opportunity to find work but its running was an expense that I had to pay for out of JSA. It was cheaper than getting the bus but then I was sat in the job centre at my own expense as several people helped a man sort out a claim for his bus fare. When I explained to the person seeing me that it was costing me a fortune in relative terms to what I was given just to look for work because I was picking up jobs in the job centre offered by agencies that had their office in the same building as all the other agencies in a town 15 miles away. So i was doing a 30 miles round trip and paying for parking often several days in a row visiting different agencies in the same building and it was basically eating my JSA alone. All I got was a sympathetic vocalization.

I ate pasta bolognese a lot as I could batch cook the sauce cheaply and fill it with cheap veg and yes some decent pasta was a luxury as it cost more than twice the poor excuse for pasta that the supermarket own brands are being made of soft grain flour (heresy!). I lived pretty much in my bedroom avoiding heating the house and my computer provided most of the heat. Fortunately I found work fairly quickly and managed as I always did well in temp jobs so went from income peak to peak until I got a steady income. But I would sit in the canteen at work listening to my coworkers slagging off people out of work thinking my god they don't have a clue.

Yes people play the system, but even where things could be sorted out they don't bother, after all you need a class of people to turn peoples anger to and away from yourself and a certain political party excels at that.
 
Thunderchild said:
Maybe a slightly better version, aspect ratio is right anyway.


Well all credit to Mathew Paris for actually being willing to take part. The politicians of today would certainly not "lower" themselves. It's sad though that even after experiencing it he still cannot see that it's no fun.

When I returned from living abroad I had all of this to look forward to. Living in my own home meant that I paid my own council tax or actually I could have probably got some help but our fragmented system meant I did not know as no one told me. I survived from getting the odd temp job as job seekers alone was never enough. I bought a car with savings I brought back with me which gave me opportunity to find work but its running was an expense that I had to pay for out of JSA. It was cheaper than getting the bus but then I was sat in the job centre at my own expense as several people helped a man sort out a claim for his bus fare. When I explained to the person seeing me that it was costing me a fortune in relative terms to what I was given just to look for work because I was picking up jobs in the job centre offered by agencies that had their office in the same building as all the other agencies in a town 15 miles away. So i was doing a 30 miles round trip and paying for parking often several days in a row visiting different agencies in the same building and it was basically eating my JSA alone. All I got was a sympathetic vocalization.

I ate pasta bolognese a lot as I could batch cook the sauce cheaply and fill it with cheap veg and yes some decent pasta was a luxury as it cost more than twice the poor excuse for pasta that the supermarket own brands are being made of soft grain flour (heresy!). I lived pretty much in my bedroom avoiding heating the house and my computer provided most of the heat. Fortunately I found work fairly quickly and managed as I always did well in temp jobs so went from income peak to peak until I got a steady income. But I would sit in the canteen at work listening to my coworkers slagging off people out of work thinking my god they don't have a clue.

Yes people play the system, but even where things could be sorted out they don't bother, after all you need a class of people to turn peoples anger to and away from yourself and a certain political party excels at that.
Click to expand...
Had you been diagnosed as autistic while you were doing temporary work?
 
not really. Ultimately if there was work I got it and got paid. I arrived back 1 week before northern rock went under so it was hard work. I got lucky in the end and stayed where I am now.
 
Electronics engineer. I started labouring testing radiators, then got moved to quality then to engineering where I eventually won at doing the electronics in what is otherwise a mechanical company. It's a nightmare as they just don't see what is required to do the job right and I am loving working from home with my own equipment rather than less equipment at work.
 
Thunderchild said:
Electronics engineer. I started labouring testing radiators, then got moved to quality then to engineering where I eventually won at doing the electronics in what is otherwise a mechanical company. It's a nightmare as they just don't see what is required to do the job right and I am loving working from home with my own equipment rather than less equipment at work.
Click to expand...
That's good. Did you study at university? I'm doing social media and newsletters for Autism Bucks after my role was made redundant at the end of last year sadly.