The ethics of reproducing

Desertphile

Desertphile

New member
On Twitter and Facebook I some times encounter autistic people who have stated they detest being autistic; it is noteworthy that autistic people tend to kill themselves [link] and the mortality rate (suicide, accidents) is higher among autistic people with various comorbids such as ADHD [link]. The "mean" [link] death rate is 36.2 years for autistic people [link].

It therefore seems unethical to me for autistic people to reproduce: autism is chiefly genetic / heritable [link]. Given the fact that human-caused climate change is already impacting humanity's quality of life and will continue to making living more difficult, it seems rational and proactive to me to advocate for autistic people to not reproduce.
 
Hello Desertphile, and welcome to our dance! šŸ™‚

First, it is autists who also have special educational needs that have a life expectancy of 36. For those autists without such needs, life expectancy rises all the way to 56, or so. Still an alarming number, though!!! But it isn't autism that's killing us. Autism is non-fatal. Although there is no conclusive, objective, scientific confirmation of this that I can find, it seems obvious that we are dying due to neglect, rejection and social exclusion, and the despair and loneliness that springs from them. This is a terrible thing, but it potentially has a society-based solution. [And pigs may fly....]

So I would not support limiting the ability of autists to breed, either in a severe, eugenics kind of way, or simply as gentle suggestion. I cannot see that it could ever be ethical to restrict or prevent the ability of autists to breed. šŸ˜Ÿ

If we really wish to combat climate change - the most pressing issue of our time - by restricting breeding, let's all do it! If we could reduce our numbers by a factor of 100 or 1000, we could make a real difference to the world and all its creatures. Link to VHEMT website.
 
Pattern-chaser said:
Hello Desertphile, and welcome to our dance! šŸ™‚
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Thank you. :)

Pattern-chaser said:
First, it is autists who also have special educational needs that have a life expectancy of 36. For those autists without such needs, life expectancy rises all the way to 56, or so. Still an alarming number, though!!! But it isn't autism that's killing us. Autism is non-fatal. Although there is no conclusive, objective, scientific confirmation of this that I can find, it seems obvious that we are dying due to neglect, rejection and social exclusion, and the despair and loneliness that springs from them. This is a terrible thing, but it potentially has a society-based solution. {And pigs may fly....}
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Thank you; I knew that already. It depends upon how one defines "fatal" in this instance; autistic people have more fatal accidents than neurologically typical people: this suggests one can argue in defense of ASD being "fatal" in the sense that risk of early death is higher for autistic people than otherwise--- I will not making that argument.

Pattern-chaser said:
So I would not support limiting the ability of autists to breed, either in a severe, eugenics kind of way, or simply as gentle suggestion. I cannot see that it could ever be ethical to restrict or prevent the ability of autists to breed. šŸ˜Ÿ
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Er... ah... I do not support restricting parenthood for autistic people. I am stating that I think autistic people should refrain from reproducing out of ethical concern.

Pattern-chaser said:
If we really wish to combat climate change - the most pressing issue of our time - by restricting breeding, let's all do it! If we could reduce our numbers by a factor of 100 or 1000, we could make a real difference to the world and all its creatures. Link to VHEMT website.
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I agree 100%. The best way to save the biosphere is for humans to sharply reduce the human population: this would take a mere 40 years or so.
 
Hm, interesting one. I personally do not want children as much as I like children. Firstly I don't want that responsibility. Secondly I would not want to subject my child to the world and it's certain future particularly as my child would likely be autistic too. Thirdly I don't think parents get as much control over their children's upbringing as they used to as society soon imprints it's norms on them. And yes, we need less people in the world not more. I have a nephew or niece arriving in May and that is quite enough.

Climate change will continue. Even if we were to just stop emitting green house gasses now what we have already done will still have it's effect so things will only get worse. The planet needs less children and i do not wish to subject a child to the future society that will doubtless favor the wealthy who can afford the adjustments to climate change.

I am only marginal but yes have on occasion thought why not end it and how could I. I never would but i can see how people are driven to it. Society is a nasty place right now and again why subject another child to it.

I think the world is a better place for autistic people though. Many engineers are on the spectrum and I suspect a lot of people that brought us advancement in the past were autistic. Obviously as autism comes with a mixture of other conditions it's hard to say how things would turn out in individual cases.
 
It is true that autistic life expectancy is about 16 years lower than in general population (53.9 years vs 70.2 respectively).
This is mainly due to many comordbid conditions, epilepsy in particular, not due to autism. It is also true that 66% of autistic people have suicidal thoughts, suicide is the leading cause of early death in high functioning people., one in 12 people who died from suicide were autistic.

However, autistic people don't die from autism, but from isolation, ableism and discrimination in society. Without the ableism we would have a much happier and more fulfilling lives with less mental health problems.

For me autistic people are integral and essential part of human diversity. Removing us from the gene pool will change the nature of humanity.
We have strengths in creativity, problem solving, systemic and independent thinking, drive and resilience. Our talents should not be lost.

In simple terms humanity would go more stupid without autism as studies have found out.
"Children whose fathers are highly intelligent are at a 32 percent higher risk of autism than those whose fathers are of average intelligence, according to research "​
"They found a one-third higher risk of autism in children whose fathersā€™ IQ scores are 111 or higher than in those whose fathersā€™ scores cluster around 100. " https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/smart-father-raises-childs-risk-autism/​
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Also 'Autism as a disorder of high intelligence' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4927579/​
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Of course that doesn't explain the cause of autism and this is not the point.
 
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Interesting topic to bring up.

I personally believe wider society would be a lot less technologically advanced without us in it. Most people innovating in tech are not NT.

But on a personal level? I donā€™t like children, I have zero desire to create any, I donā€™t understand the drive to have kids that others seem to have, and yes I do think that if I were to have kids knowing there is a high chance of them having the same issues I have it would be unethical.

I donā€™t extrapolate this to all autistic people but that is my personal view and I wonā€™t ever reproduce. Iā€™ll have much more disposable income than most people as a direct result too.

As for climate change, people not having kids in the West will not make any meaningful difference at all. Most pollution is coming from China not the West. Good luck getting China to care about pollution when they canā€™t run their factories without it. Not to mention the oil producing countries like Saudi Arabia. As usual, follow the money...

If you want to reduce your carbon footprint buy an electric car and put solar panels on your house. I think within a couple decades this will be standard across the UK and Europe anyway. The US will be mixed, and China will probably still be ignoring it.
 
Desertphile said:
On Twitter and Facebook I some times encounter autistic people who have stated they detest being autistic; it is noteworthy that autistic people tend to kill themselves [link] and the mortality rate (suicide, accidents) is higher among autistic people with various comorbids such as ADHD [link]. The "mean" [link] death rate is 36.2 years for autistic people [link].

It therefore seems unethical to me for autistic people to reproduce: autism is chiefly genetic / heritable [link]. Given the fact that human-caused climate change is already impacting humanity's quality of life and will continue to making living more difficult, it seems rational and proactive to me to advocate for autistic people to not reproduce.
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Ok i
 
It is the individual's choice about whether they have children or not as long as they have all the facts and are in a good safe relationship and are over the consented age it should be ok and it is vital that people with autism are supported in the right way to have a healthy level of positive attitude and self confidence about their individuality and about having autism.
 
The world would be a poorer place without autistics. They have made a huge contribution to society. Many of our greatest inventors, were people who polished their specialist interests to such a high level that their inventions, and publications changed the way we work - think Steve Jobs, of Apple computers, and Einstein and Isaac Newton, to name obvious ones. I would not be at all surprised if the inventor of the wheel ( total specualtion on my part) was not an autistic person. I also have a theory that gets the trolls foaming at the mouth, that the old testament was written by autistics, and perhaps some of the Pharisees and Sadducees Jesus got really pissed off with in Matthew 23:13-27, were probably autistic - the rules are rules type, we had one of those in our Bucks Autism group a couple of years ago! Think what amazing contribution they made in an inverse way to the greatest of all Religions.
 
If I might sound my own trumpet - I invented the LED in 1986, ( but never developed it further than a single little red light that flashed on and off on a badge worn on clothing). As a result of my involvement with the patent industry I gave a title to that profession of Intellectual Property - a title that has been used since. I redesigned a town centre from a car-way High street, into a fully pedestrianised precinct, that is still functioning as I originally designed together with the local council and top business owners. In the process I invented a group called Town Centre Managers - I went to get support from the then family owner of Marks & Spencers. I literally drove over to his home, and asked to see him, I was let in through the electronic high steel gates, and met him in his house office and explained what I wanted to do, he gave me a cheque in support of my plans and put the full weight of M&S behind my scheme, Its still exists today in towns all over Britain. Finally I changed the way the City of London use money for managing insurance - the only proof I have of that is a letter from one of the city grandees thanking me for my contributionšŸ˜¢šŸ˜‡. I reckon we all have a contribution to make to society, one way or another, so rock on future generations of ASD.
 
Dai said:
The world would be a poorer place without autistics. They have made a huge contribution to society. Many of our greatest inventors, were people who polished their specialist interests to such a high level that their inventions, and publications changed the way we work
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Absolutely. Autistic people have always been part of humanity and our culture and industry is full of our contributions.

I am glad I am mother to two brilliant and lovely autistic girls. They make the world a better place for me.
 
As a personal choice, I'm 35 and will never have children. Part of my reason is that I don't want a child to grow up having to go through the hell that I had to go through, and plus I don't feel that I would cope with being a mother to a human being, it seems like a long prison sentence. I have grown to tolerate some children, but to say I like them is a stretch. I much prefer the company of dogs.

I don't feel that autistic people shouldn't breed, it's a personal choice. I hope that in generations to come the world is a much more accepting place of autistic people. I also think there are some very good qualities to autistic people, and that the way society is becoming more technological people are going to develop more autistic traits naturally as the earlier social skills become less important.
 
azealia84 said:
As a personal choice, I'm 35 and will never have children. Part of my reason is that I don't want a child to grow up having to go through the hell that I had to go through, and plus I don't feel that I would cope with being a mother to a human being, it seems like a long prison sentence. I have grown to tolerate some children, but to say I like them is a stretch. I much prefer the company of dogs.

I don't feel that autistic people shouldn't breed, it's a personal choice. I hope that in generations to come the world is a much more accepting place of autistic people. I also think there are some very good qualities to autistic people, and that the way society is becoming more technological people are going to develop more autistic traits naturally as the earlier social skills become less important.
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I like your last comment. My daughter was a miracle. I never thought she would arrive. Although she lives with her mum, I love her to bits and she is sudying Maths, Further Maths and Economics and has set her heart on a place at LSE. I hope and pray she will succeed. Its really lovely to know she is clever. And pretty too! I am an old Daddy ( she was born when I was 53) so probably won't live to see her successes nor her upsets, but hey ho, I am sure God will watch over her. My upbringing was tough, so I resolved never to treat her the same way. She's a quiet and caring Aspie girl.
 
Desertphile said:
On Twitter and Facebook I some times encounter autistic people who have stated they detest being autistic; it is noteworthy that autistic people tend to kill themselves [link] and the mortality rate (suicide, accidents) is higher among autistic people with various comorbids such as ADHD [link]. The "mean" [link] death rate is 36.2 years for autistic people [link].

It therefore seems unethical to me for autistic people to reproduce: autism is chiefly genetic / heritable [link]. Given the fact that human-caused climate change is already impacting humanity's quality of life and will continue to making living more difficult, it seems rational and proactive to me to advocate for autistic people to not reproduce.
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Well my children arrived at least 12 years before I was diagnosed. How can it suddenly become unethical to have children just because of a diagnosis? And why should the same diagnosis stop others having children if aim have already had them.

And yes mine is an autistic family. I don't think the next generation should put up with all the stuff I have.
 
I know so many autistic people in so many fields of endeavour - some very successful and high earners, to others of little means. What all of us need is an anchor, so that we may less time on the "selfs" ( self pity, self hatred, self indulgence etc ) and more on the focus of their life, and its direction. Its the focus on self which leads to their self destruction. It is a temptation for all of us which we just have to learn to manage, by attaching Faith and Loyalty to another. For me it is to God. Its up to others which they choose, an organisation, a wife and family, or a cause.
 
I do not wish to bear children currently but thatā€™s due to being suspected of having one of several agonizing genetic conditions (joint hyper-mobility is a misery I wouldnā€™t wish on anyone although itā€™s cause is still being diagnosed). I can easily see why autistics have such a short life span. Iā€™ve experienced sexual harassment and threats of rape, extreme bullying, gaslighting, suicidal ideation, threats of violence and actual violence. And thatā€™s all before leaving grade school. To demand that a human being live in such conditions indefinitely with no end in sight would make anyone suicidal. Autism is not fatal. The conditions that too many of us have to endure is what kills us more than anything. The solution is not autistics choosing to not have children, itā€™s demanding fair and equal treatment and advocating for those who cannot. More people should consider alternative options to having children, not just autistics, but that is an entirely separate issue to autisticsā€™ life spans.
 
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Curiously we were reading a number of psalms this evening Psalms 56, 121, 62, 42, 141, and 23 cover all of your comments above.